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Wednesday, April 9, 2008
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13 comments:
Okay.
The guest Dr. Holt was good.
The US Military is a cult.
It fits ALL the parameters of a mind-controlling organization and does not release its hold on its members. . . basic training is a crash immersion into the cult, and once indoctrinated its members will do anything that is asked of them including the murder of innocent strangers.
We were lied to by this administration to enter into a war which as direct result of the lies, let alone the fact that it was a pre-emptive war ...(which is outlawed by international rule)... is an illegal invasion and occupation of another sovereignty. Our leaders who are responsible for the promulgation fo the lies should be turned over to international courts for prosecution for war crimes.
Any discussion of the war which does not include the preceding statement of illegality makes the discussion of the war moot. Precedence always must be given to the illegality of the action. It has not mysteriously become legal because it has endured now for 5+ years. It is wrong.
And criminal.
Gary, you don't speak honestly---but ignorantly--- regarding the war.
Not stupidly, but ignorantly---you ignore the obvious, Gary : that we were fed a line of bullshit from the getgo and nothing since has changed that. WMDs. WMDs Related Activities. False ties between Saddam Hussein and al Queada. Etc.
You're not a stupid person, far from it, but you choose what to ignore if it doesn't fit your worldview. You ignore the lies that led to the war as if they don't exist. You ignore the profiteering as if it isn't behind what is happening.
Follow the money trail, as in any crime scene, and you find who has put out the hit and stands to make money or gain something from it.
The lies exist, they're on record, and easily accessed by anyone who reviews the statements of our leaders prior to 03/19/03.
Don't ignore them.
That's just plain ignorant.
Gary,
Your response is one of ignorance.
Every analyst who understands brainwashing knows that basic training ---AROUND THE WORLD, not just here in the USA--- is cult introduction. All basic training worldwide seeks to break down the recruit and replace their old allegiances, their old thought patterns and behaviors with new ones, especially allegiance to their basic training partners, and the military in general.
IT IS BRAINWASHING, and the exact same thing that all cults use.
To NOT describe it as a cult is to NOT see it for what it is-----if you look at it unbiasedly, from the position of a psychiatrist or psychologist or sociologist, the conclusion is inescapable: it IS a cult.
You are ignorant if you don't understand this.
Shame?
Shame on me?
Why are you playing at being a moralist who believes that saying "shame" is going to make me fail to look at things honestly?!?!?!?!
Why do you play such a silly game, Gary?
Look at things honestly --without the jingoistic defences-- and you'll see things for what they are.
On Iraq: we were either lied to, or we weren't------And the evidence all says LIES.
But ignore it if you will.
I call it ignorance.
"All basic training worldwide seeks to break down the recruit and replace their old allegiances, their old thought patterns and behaviors with new ones, especially allegiance to their basic training partners, and the military in general.
IT IS BRAINWASHING, and the exact same thing that all cults use."
Jacque - I disagree with you here. The "brainwashing" activities you describe here can be applied to a lot of groups other than the military...consider religions, for example. Or my daughter's Montessori school. Or a chiropractor's office.
Now, as far as the lies and such, I won't argue against you there. My mind isn't made up about any of that.
Doug Walters,
There are plenty of cults. Any group that indoctrinates its members to accept belief in something far beyond informed and free intellectual choice can be considered to be cult-like, if not outright cult.
To me, the ultimate success of a cult is it ability to convince its members that the cult mission statement is THEIR mission in life. They identify with the cult mission; their lives have become the cult's.
I think that we can see that an organization can be a cult and have either beneficial or deleterious affect on society-----not all cults are evil if the criteria used is life-affirming/life-denying.
For example, AA can in many ways be seen as cultlike: allegiance to the Book, identity/self reduction, membership accepted as behavioral priority--yet it seeks to reduce those behaviors that damage members and overall could be assessed as life-affirmative.
The military is life-denying:
the average Joe is taught through brainwashing to kill on command.
It doesn't matter which nation is doing the military cult indoctrination . . . the techniques are the same in China and France and Australia as they are in the US.
It doesn't matter if the recruit has been told from Day 1 of their life that killing is a sin, or a crime------the military will teach them how to kill, THOUGHTLESSLY!, and if the recruit resists the re-education they are drummed out. Very few are released because the training is so effective, and the recruits have already been conditioned to greater or lesser degree by images and words. The average kid in America who watches TV sees thousands of murders by the time they're 18. This is pre-conditioning: the shock of the notion of killing someone has been reduced.
I think women tend to resist the killing credo and aren't quite as susceptible to the brainwashing because their maternal instincts of nurturing and protecting make them less murderous. But they, too, can be broken with modifications to the techniques.
One thing: to not look critically at what we are doing is to be ignorant.
Ignorance promotes ignorance.
It's why we have ignorant people.
They have embraced ignorance.
It's why we still have people promoting violence, war, as conflict resolution.
It's why the human race is still only moments from its own destruction.
And its why greed is still the dominant determinant in war.
... the military will teach them how to kill, THOUGHTLESSLY!
Whoops, sorry, but no. First, we are taught that our duty is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Second, everyone has a duty to obey lawful orders. Try defending yourself in a military court with "dunno, I was just following orders."
Consider the circumstances of the My Lai Massacre. Note that it was stopped by a US Army helicopter crew. That helicopter crew (later awarded the Soldier's Medal for their heroism) is the standard -- not the murderers who perpetrated the massacre.
Presenting the medals, Army Major General Michael Ackerman described the My Lai carnage as "one of the most shameful chapters in the army's history". (from the BBC)
Quoting Gen. MacArthur, Ackerman said "The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed."
Hardly sounds like a group intent on creating murderers, but I guess that's just me.
I'm getting bored with this political mumbo jumbo, Jay. I need me some Olav.
So did you have a bad experience with a military recruiter or what?
Let me begin by saying that I am from a family that has a very long military history, dating back to the Revolutionary War in this country. So am I biased, yes, am I ill informed; I think not. I have actual family members to look at, real people not non-existent examples that you casually toss about as thoughtless killing machines. I guess I just want to know where your information is derived; have you been through boot camp, were you drafted?
Most members of the military I know enlisted of their own accord, they were patriotic American citizens before joining and knew what tasks might befall them as members of the United States Military. Killing machines?? Have you ever talked to anyone that has killed someone while engaged during wartime?
I have one Grandfather that contracted Malaria four times while serving in the South Pacific during WWII and faced the Imperial Army with only a bayonet, the bullets had run out of his WWI era issued weapon, and he somehow survived. Did he have to kill someone to survive; I assume. Has he ever talked about it, not on your life.
My other Grandfather stormed the beaches at Normandy and passed away in 2000 without ever mentioning what kind of hell he faced. I can only imagine the inhumanity he encountered across Europe caused by the Nazi regime. He was your average kid from a coal mining immigrant family that was proud of his country and stepped up to serve like so many of his generation.
I give you these two examples because they were not prideful of what they had to do, pride in unjustified acts of killing would seem the norm if they had been brainwashed. The military men and women serving this country do what generations in this country have done before them; they stand up and serve, of their own volition, with the goal of protecting American citizens at home and abroad.
The funny thing about your blog entry is that someone has obviously fed you a long litany of half-truths; to me they seem “far beyond informed and free intellectual choice”. I wish you would talk to some real ex-members of the military, find out if killing is on their mind as soon as they wake up. I bet you would be surprised.
Oh and one other thing; I’m a Democrat, just like my Grandfather that passed away and my father who served during the Vietnam area. So just before you begin spouting on about some conservative conspiracy that I must somehow be a part of I just thought I would let you know.
Jay said:
"Consider the circumstances of the My Lai Massacre. Note that it was stopped by a US Army helicopter crew. That helicopter crew (later awarded the Soldier's Medal for their heroism) is the standard -- not the murderers who perpetrated the massacre."
Let's examine what you just said, Jay. You said that the MyLai massacre "was stopped by a US Army helicopter crew."
No, it wasn't. The helicopter crew--one man specifically-- managed to stop the killing of a few, but not until after 500+ innocent women and children were killed. That's why it is called a massacre.
You said that that "helicopter crew was the standard--not the murderers who caused the massacre."
No, the standard was the illegal invasion by a US military force of a foreign nation fighting to throw off the shackles of foreign (French, mostly) imperialism and regain its independence.
The USA is responsible in VietNam for the killing of millions of VietNamese. And the killing continues to this day since the 20,000,000 gallons of carcinogenic and non-biodegradable Agent Orange and other colors are involved in the huge number of cancer deaths of VietNamese who were exposed directly by being sprayed (more than 4,000,000) or have drunk water or eaten food with dioxin in it.
Any apology for the actions of the US military in VietNam that doesn't take into account that America had no right to invade that country
is a LIE.
----------------------------------
Suzi.
I would respond fully to what you are saying, except it would do no good.
You could not understand what I said already. More attempts to say the same thing to you would only be futile.
You cannot think without becoming jingoistic and defensive.
There is a distinct difference between a war that is bent on repelling an out-of-control killing army, such as we had in Germany, Italy, and Japan in WWII and wars of political and financial gain that are completely unnecessary such as VietNam and Iraq.
Unless you can begin to think critically I am not going to waste my time explaining to you.
I don't know how old you are.
I'm 59. I was jailed for refusing to go to VietNam. I am a therapist. I do volunteer work 3 hours every week treating violent offenders. My experience with the military is like many from that late 60s period---we were conscripted and the rich and privileged got deferments and the rest did not.
I left a full scholarship to Penn State because I was disgusted with the way things were going, and lost my student 2S deferment leading to my conscription.
I am named for my dad's two brothers who were both killed in WWII. They were great guys I'm told.
I am a pacifist.
I am not a member of any organized religion.
I am trained to recognize illness when I see it.
Our nation's pro-militarism right now is an illness.
And yes, boot camp is cult-indoctrination---- culminating in trained killers who will follow orders even when a psychotic like Hitler or William Calley is giving them.
Jacque,
From the body of your last post to Suzi, it sounds like the cult and indoctrination part may have affected you. Any lessons on understanding the patriotic tenets of this country in civics class may have been missed by you, and the cult of indignant foolishness narrow-minded surreality that you have chosen to ally yourself with is sad. Your consistent hiding away from anything that would change your view of the world sounds like the effects of a cult mentality to me. Let me see if I have this right; All of the rest of us are supposed to listen to your manifesto each post or call, be labeled as jingoistic and ignorant, yet our arguments are beneath your mentality and you need not consider them as reasonable alternatives. So, you are always right! Fine. After this rampage, you certainly are welcome to write here, but after this, I don't know how many can take you seriously, or even discuss anything with you unless we agree with your point of view. You might be better served if you pull a chair up to the mirror and have a two-way discussion with yourself. That is apparently the only one in your cult of rightness who is worthy of talking with you. GS
Let me get this straight, Gary . . .
You said,
that I am a member of a cult of one.
Me.
And the other name of the cult that I am is "indignant foolishness narrow-minded surreality" which in your estimation is
"sad."
And anything I say can't be taken "seriously."
!!!!?!!!?!!!!!?!!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?
Not a word about anything I said. Not a word about whether we were lied to by a criminal administration to take us into an illegal war which has killed hundreds of thousands. Not a word about whether the military is cultish, which it is since it seeks to implant total allegiance to the group to the point where if they say "kill" its members will kill.
That's a cult.
A dangerous one.
Not a word to say anything of any substance to refute or argue anything I said. . .
Only a personal attack.
A superficial personal attack.
What does this say about you, Gary? Eh?
------------------------------------From the website I linked to under "William Calley" :
The My Lai Massacre (pronunciation (help·info), approximately [mi.˧˩˥'lɐːj˧˧]) (Vietnamese: thảm sát Mỹ Lai) was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens of the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), mostly civilians and majority of them women and children, conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968. Before being killed some of the victims were raped and sexually molested, beaten, tortured, or maimed. Some of the dead bodies were also mutilated.[1] The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.
This was done by American men.
Boys. The average age was 19.
Normal kids who were taught something in their basic training that overrode all the family and religious training they had received all their lives about not doing things to hurt others.
Raped.
Beat.
Tortured.
Maimed.
Mutilated.
I daresay that if we find a large number of dead mostly women and children who have had such things done to them, we would all wonder what sort of human beings could have done this. . . and one of the understandings that would make sense and fit the crime scenario is if it was done by sociopathic psychopaths.
Or members of some sadistic bloodthirsty cult.
But these were Charley Company American soldiers.
Leave off the personal attacks, Gary.
They are beneath you.
This blog has lost most of its posters. Some of that reason is your reading things on air that are putdowns to which there is no response. Some of that reason is your thinskinned reactions to things that get said------such as you just did to me---- in personal attacks here and on the air.
Stick to the issues.
Stick to a critical inquiry to what is happening.
Avoid the personal attacks.
Somehow, I get the feeling that the truth isn't really that important to you:
just stuff that excites people for a moment, provokes them to give an opinion.
Yet I know this isn't who you are at a deeper level---I know that you respect honesty and desire people to be truthful.
I think we get fed a line of bullshit continuously and never seem able to see it for what it is.
For example, we're told that America is addicted to oil and OPEC has us over a barrel. And we have been paying a king's ransom which is breaking the lower classes and lower middle class as result.
Yet there is no real crisis, if we wanted it to end.
We could have enacted CAFE standards back in 1973 (we did, and Reagan refuted them), we could have been building and buying lighter vehicles, enacted and held to speed limits, and recuded our energy dependency very easily, easily saved 25% or more of the amount of oil we use.
But we didn't.
And only 14.9% of the oil we use comes from the MidEast.
So we are continuously lied to and we bought into the lie.
The truth is a different animal completely.
Follow the money trail.
I welcome anyone who respects discussion and dialogue on this blog. We have gained some new bloggers . Opinion is welcomed as well, but the I'm always right and you're always wrong attitude that is possessed by some is tedious. Jacque, your diatribes are tedious. GS
"My diatribes are tedious."
That is your response to anything that was said??!?!?
As if saying that is contributional to dialogue and discussion....!!!
That's critical thinking at its best.
That's it.
I'm done.
I am no longer contributing to this post.
It's history for me.
There's way too much repartee which expands my thinking.
by the way, Gary, why don't you read my previous post on the air---- I doubt you will. Especially the part about the My Lai Massacre from Wikipedia---it doesn't support your support of American militarism. Or my saying that you've alienated bloggers by saying things about them on air without their ability to refute what you say.
But it's the truth.
Jacque,
You have just made your best contribution. I will finally repeat that you don't discuss which is why I no longer answer. You are right! You are always right! Take that with you when you leave. GS
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