Reality Based suggested a general post for everyone to discuss what's on their mind to tide you over through the weekend.
So, what news stories did we miss this week that you'd like to discuss?
Saturday, February 16, 2008
So, what should we know about?
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25 comments:
Good idea, Jay.
Here's something that I find puzzling concerning this presidential race:
Admittedly, I'm a Barack Obama supporter and I'm up front about it. One of the criticisms of him that keeps surfacing is his "lack of experience". If 'experience' is what has gotten us to the state of affairs in our country today, then I say, "do I want more of this?"
What say ye?
Well geez...I guess I kind of feel obligated to post some kind of comment!
Fred...the experience question is interesting. I can think of two alternative questions. 1)What kind of experience does one bring? 2) Is experience the only thing that makes one qualified?
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On another topic, it was interesting to see the give and take between the boogedy-boogedy man in chief and Congress this week. Bush tried his best to scare up a rushed FISA bill, but the House didn't go for it this time.
His scare tactics were/are so disingenuous. If he was really concerned about it he would have signed an extension to the bill. As it stands right now if you take him at his word he appears to be more concerned with protecting phone companies from lawsuits than he is about protecting the people in this country.
IMO, Obama is a political lightweight and it will become quite obvious if he makes it beyond the primaries.
To any Obama supports (without searching his website):
Which positions of his do you agree?
Which positions of his do you disagree? Why?
I have found that most of Obama's supporters really don't know his positions on anything, especially not well enough to agree or disagree with them. All they seem to know is that he speaks well. To Obama it's OK if you don't know his positions, as long as you still vote for him.
If you listen to Obama and your average pulpit pimpin' televangelist, you won't find many differences. At the present, only one comes to mind. If you send Obama $100, he won't send you the little bottle of holy water, "hope" cloth, or the helm from his garment.
"Change" and "Hope" are abstract concepts that can mean anything to anyone. When Obama supporters realize his idea of "change" and the financial cost of providing "hope" then they may reconsider their decision.
Nevertheless, with Obama or Hillary, I "hope" you can live off the "change" in you pocket after you are taxed to support a welfare state.
BTW...
Section 1 of Article 2 of the U.S. Constitution states that a President must:
* be a natural born citizen of the united States
* be at least 35 years old
* have lived in the U.S. for at least 14 years
These are the only qualifications for the job. Anything beyond the above can be seen as experience. I don't think any of us would want a 35 year old that lives at home and is still supported by his parents as POTUS. So, most would agree that experience well beyond the minimum is preferred.
In Obama's case, a "lack of experience" my not disqualify him for the job, but it doesn't make him the most qualified or the best candidate for the position either.
I get why you don't feel Barack Obama would be a good choice to lead the country, Eric. Now tell me why your choice would be an improvement and I should re-consider my support of Obama.
Don't tell me about what you feel are the negatives of Obama, I want to hear about the positive aspects of your choice for president.
What kind of experience is necessary to be president? Obama has been serving the public for more than 20 years, yet people want to harp on "lack of experience". What kind of experience qualifies?
And can someone explain to me what part of re-imposing the tax breaks on people making more than $250K is hard to understand? I am quite confident my tax burden (on the federal level at least) will not go up under an Obama or Clinton administration. If I remember correctly Obama in particular has a specific plan to lower taxes on middle class families. Why are people so adamant it will? What evidence is there other than "that's what Democrats do"?
"Good idea, Jay."
It is, isn't it? And it was all mine. The idea. One hundred percent. Ignore the reality-based man behind the curtain.
;)
Just Fred,
I know this is an open thread, but I don't recall discussing my choice to lead the country. I also didn't realize that my decision was relevant to you support of Obama. Aren't you able to defend your decision? What does my choice have to do with your support of Obama? Please explain.
Which positions of his do you agree?
Which positions of his do you disagree? Why?
Reality_Based: "And can someone explain to me what part of re-imposing the tax breaks on people making more than $250K is hard to understand? I am quite confident my tax burden (on the federal level at least) will not go up under an Obama or Clinton administration."
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
Ok, Eric, you asked about why I might support Obama.
Let's consider his economic proposals and attitudes for example:
He believes in getting rid of NAFTA because he sees it as a failed policy. He sees the middleclass as the real heart and soul of America and wants to ease the tax burden on them. He believes that companies that have shifted their manufacturing and businesses overseas should have to carry a bigger load of importation taxes if that's what they hve chosen to do. He wants to re-institute a pay-as-you-go program in government so no money is taken from the treasury without a plan in place to replace the lost revenue.
That's a start. Now tell me about the candidate you support and his/her ideas on economics.
Your choice IS relevant to me because I respect your opinion as well as the opinions of others. Rather than pointing out the short-comings of one candidate, I'd be more impressed by hearing the positive ideas of another.
Fred, based your description of Obama’s economic proposals, I would probably support his candidacy. However, there is the little issue of Obama’s Gobal Poverty Act which would give .7% of our GNP to foreign aid. I can not support taxing our economy when we already give so much to help other nations. I support individual charitable giving, but I absolutely can not support a global tax at the expense of the American people.
Just fred: “Now tell me about the candidate you support and his/her ideas on economics.”
Well, fred. I realize that this election is a lot bigger than the economics. Economics is important, but if other bigger and more important issues are addresses then the economy will do just fine without government intervention. Our economy is the most productive economy in the history of the entire world. Not because of government intervention, but because of our freedom and the desire of the American people create, invent, and produce the products, services, and technology to create a better life people worldwide.
Just fred: “Your choice IS relevant to me because I respect your opinion as well as the opinions of others.”
Well, the candidate I support believes in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That candidate believes that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the United States of America. My candidate believes that a strong national defense is crucial to the safety and security of the American people . My candidate believes in the right of a free people to keep and bear arms. My candidate believes that the US is sovereign nation, whose borders should be secured and protected. My candidate believes that government is limited only to those responsibilities specified in the COTUS. My candidate believes that life should be protected and defended, even the lives of the unborn. My candidate believes that the money and property I own is mine to do with as I please, and not something to be taken by government force to be redistributed in exchange for votes or campaign contributions.
I guess that’s a start. As you may notice, IMO being POTUS is a little more making empty promises and telling partial truths. It is about following the established rules that have permitted this nation to survive for the past 200 years. Some of the proposals you listed may be worthwhile, but to me they don’t mean much without the ideals I have listed above.
What is the big problem here ?
According to most of the people in the US, ANY change will be a welcome thing.
Eric,
I only used Obama's economic ideas as an example. You asked said most Obama supporters "don't know his positions on anything".
Our country seems locked in a tribal political struggle not unlike what must be happening in the Middle East. Democrats vs Republicans.......Sunnis vs Shiites...Hatfields vs McCoys. History is full of such examples.
I, for one (and perhaps many others), have had enough of it. I see Barack Obama as the best hope to break the cycle. Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but something I've felt about the guy is this:
It's not so much that I believe in him, it's that I feel he believes in me.
JMO: "According to most of the people in the US, ANY change will be a welcome thing."
Hilter changed Germany, so IMO those willing to accept ANY CHANGE should be careful of what they HOPE for. The COTUS is the biggest obstacle in the way of CHANGE for may politicians. It was created specifically for that reason.
just fred: "It's not so much that I believe in him, it's that I feel he believes in me."
I guess we are different in many ways. For one, I don't look to politicians for affirmation of my own self worth. You are free to seek your validation where you can find it.
Eric,
Funny, I didn't see any Hitler on the ballot, but perhaps you do.
I think ALL of the current candidates carry some baggage for voters. Overall, however, all will bring a change.
The current voting trend is towards change, as evidenced by current polls as to where people stand on the current Administration and legislators as a whole.
Your views seem only to attack. It is easy to attack from the shadows and not give support to a particular candidate or position.
I see good in all the candidates, but will wait to see who emerges from the primaries. McCain is a shoe-in at this point for the Republicans. The Dems still have a long way to go and in my estimation is dead-even at this point. They have a lot of potential pitfalls because of the way the DNC has screwed up the primaries and delegates. We will see if they can recover.
You appear to be a person without a candidate. If you are a strict Constitutionalist, then really no one will fill the bill. They all want to tout it, but fail in one way or another and this pretty much includes all the leading candidates as well as our current Admin and representatives of both parties.
Life is full of compromises.
Actually, I've got an idea for a really quick-n-easy way to create a lot of tax relief on the lower (and much of the middle) class:
In 1913, the Federal income tax was imposed on taxpayers with at least $3,000 of income. If we take that figure and adjust it for inflation, we get $63690.20.
So let's get our representatives to write a bill to get the income tax back on track: no tax liability unless your income exceeded $65,000 last year.
"Our country seems locked in a tribal political struggle ... I, for one (and perhaps many others), have had enough of it."
Boy, you're going to love the new poll!
Ahh, Godwin's Law.
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Eric,
It's just that I find Obama's message to be inspiring and encouraging, and I don't feel the same way about the other choices.
Personally, I don't respond very well to an authoritarian management styles. I question and challenge too much to be comfortable in that kind of environment.
I know very well who I am and what kind of leadership style works for me. I probably would have lasted about a week working within the Bush Administration and been fired. It would have been a blessing and relief for both of us.
I the interest of keeping it simple, I will quote a statement and follow with my response. Those that I am quoting know what they have written; those who don’t know can scroll back.
“Funny, I didn't see any Hitler on the ballot, but perhaps you do.:
I don’t see Castro, Chevez, Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong II, Lenin, Marx or Stalin either, but their ideology isn’t too hard to find among those on the ballot.
“Your views seem only to attack. It is easy to attack from the shadows and not give support to a particular candidate or position.”
I don’t consider expressing a concern about certain political positions to be an attack. My support and loyalty is to my position. Candidates for office needs my vote, I don’t need theirs.
“You appear to be a person without a candidate. If you are a strict Constitutionalist, then really no one will fill the bill. They all want to tout it, but fail in one way or another and this pretty much includes all the leading candidates as well as our current Admin and representatives of both parties.”
My principles go far beyond what is considered “Constitutional” because they existed among free people prior to the Constitution. Adhering to the principals of the COTUS is a starting point for rules expressed in a manner that most people can understand.
“Life is full of compromises.”
And IMO also full of absolutes and position far too important to compromise.
“So let's get our representatives to write a bill to get the income tax back on track: no tax liability unless your income exceeded $65,000 last year.”
I’ve heard that one before, “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.” - Karl Marx.
"Our country seems locked in a tribal political struggle ... I, for one (and perhaps many others), have had enough of it."
I wonder if they have this type of problem in countries with less freedom? Maybe relinquishing our freedom for the “common good” would be an acceptable solution. If we had one political party and a totalitarian leader that would be ruler for life, like Cuba, we wouldn’t have any political struggle. Let us all just sacrifice a little “political persecution” in exchange for the end of tribal political struggle. Is that your solution?
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
I have found this true if and only if the discussion is political in nature, and Hitler is being portrayed in a negative light. Those who want a society without “tribal political struggle” seldom use Hitler’s name in an attempt to conceal their ultimate goal. I have never known evil to identify itself as evil.
“It's just that I find Obama's message to be inspiring and encouraging, and I don't feel the same way about the other choices.”
Are you voting for a President and the leader of the free world, or a motivational speaker?
Eric, I'm looking for both a motivater and a leader all wrapped up into one individual. Gee, what a novel idea.
I'll stick to my assertion that tribal politics poisons the system.
Eric,
Again, much but much about nothing !
If you have a candidate and positions you support - espouse and expose them.
Don't lurk in the dark like some blog troll.
Fred: "Eric, I'm looking for both a motivater and a leader all wrapped up into one individual. Gee, what a novel idea."
You can set your expectations and level of qualifications as low as you wish. If you choose to support Obama, that your right. Regardless of the candidate I support for POTS now or any time in the future, you can guarantee that I won't have any hesitations about voicing my opposition where I don't agree. Outside of the economic issues, you still can't bring yourself to answer my initial questions.
Which positions of his do you agree?
Which positions of his do you disagree? Why?
Just fred: "I'll stick to my assertion that tribal politics poisons the system."
In a way, I kind of knew that you would. A one world government/religion is definitely in our future and there is not a thing any of us can do about it. It is actually very interesting to watch events unfold as predicted. I just find it surprising the number of people who don't have a clue about the big picture.
JMO: "If you have a candidate and positions you support - espouse and expose them. Don't lurk in the dark like some blog troll."
JMO, you may not realize this but "a canidate" is the most trivial part of this entire discussion. There really isn't much difference between them. As for "positions I support," this page is completely loaded with them, so that is not exactly lurking in the dark. However, since I have failed to join a "tribe," I understand your statement.
This has been fun, if for no other reason than to confirm what I already knew. This will be my last post on this thread. I am going to spend time with my family. See you down the blog.
Sounds like most of us are unhappy about our choices for President.
I'll be the first one to bring this up - the next President will sit through two more Congressional Elections, where class II (2009) and III (2011) Senators will be up. I wonder if we the people will use those elections to check the POTUS.
It's really our only opportunity to have a say in this country anymore. The Judicial branch will be owned by the Executive branch with possibly three new apointees during the next term (so I've heard).
Eric,
Good luck in your search for the perfect candidate, and I wish you joy.
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